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I'd like to set a bed / wake time (or guideline) for my teen. While a part of me would say something like 8:00 a.m. in summer, something like being up by 10:00 is okay with me. But logistically (especially THIS summer) she has no activities that demand her to be up at any time so theoretically she could wake at 4:00 p.m. without impacting any schedules.

What I'm asking is for suggestions as to why there should be a limit on her schedule. I'm trying to stay away from playing the "my house, my rules" card. But my own sensibilities and some general idea that we're still part of a household and broader society are about the only justifications I have. What are some other reasons I can give for why we're setting a bed time?

There's a bit of a consideration around school eventually starting again and not getting life completely out of whack, but during the first week of summer, that seems a fairly abstract argument.

Edit For clarification, my daughter has just finished middle school and is turning 14. As Kevin mentions, this general advice will still tailor as she ages, even comes back home from college, etc.

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    If you don't have a reason that you yourself find convincing, why do you think that a fake reason you found on the internet would be more persuasive? – BinaryTox1n May 26 at 16:59
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    You should honestly ask yourself why you want your teenage daughter in bed by a certain time and communicate this reason. Everything else would be inauthentic. And your daughter will definitively sense if the reason you state is not the reason you actually have, leading to unpleasant discussions. – henning -- reinstate Monica May 26 at 17:38
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    "no activities that demand her to be up at any time so theoretically she could wake at 4:00 p.m. without impacting any schedules" is the root issue here. Why on earth not?! chores/work/family meals/family activities should all be part of her summer, especially under quarantine/lockdown. If she can get away with lazing around all day then you have bigger issues at play here. Don't say "you have to get up by 8am", give her responsibilities (like the adult she almost is) and let her work it out. – stan May 26 at 18:32
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    @stan Even if she has chores or work, that doesn't mean she has to do them at any particular time. If she gets them done then who cares if she cleans the kitchen or takes out the trash at noon or midnight? If it is too loud or disruptive to other people in the house then that's a good reason to have them do things between certain hours, but just having things to do isn't a reason that the teen is likely to find persuasive – Kevin Wells May 26 at 20:04
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    @BinaryTox1n It interferes with 1) being part of the family, 2) scheduling when various things do come up, 3) (eventually) school. There's also some societal normalization here. While my goal is not to make a corporate drone getting up at 6:00 a.m. daily, instilling some sense of being in tune with most of society is an undertone. – John Spiegel May 26 at 20:17
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It sounds like there are a couple things going on here, from your answers to the comments.

  1. You think that due to social norms, she should fit in and go to bed when society deems acceptable.
  2. You'd like to spend time with your daughter while you're both awake, and would like to maximize that time.

Item #1 is a dead end. No teen in the world will ever care what the proper bed time is. You can try any form of command you like, she will sleep on her own schedule regardless.

Item #2 is what you should approach her with. The key is that you not say when she needs to go to bed - we've already established this is not within your control. A commenter pointed this out, but I'll reiterate because it's true: if you want to influence her behavior you need to give her a reason.

Want to entice her to wake up? How about a family waffle making contest - to be judged at 10am? Be prepared for negotiation. Maybe waking up for waffles isn't important to her, and she'd rather enter a taco contest to be judged at 1 instead.

It's important to be honest about what you want, and if what you want is unreasonable then you should expect her not to care. She won't care that at some nebulous time in her maybe-future she will need to wake up at 6 am. If that's true, why not maximize sleep now while she has the chance?

I'd start with: "I'd like to do something fun with you tomorrow, but you'll have to wake up in the morning - 'cause otherwise you'll miss it."

An astute reader will notice that this plan only works for one day - unless you like waffles enough to eat them every morning. You'll have to have a new family activity every day! Think about why she should change her behavior if you aren't going to do the same.

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  • I agree with this, but I want to add that there might even be a way to bring up reason #1. I think it's great that OP realizes that some of his discomfort at the thought of his daughter sleeping in may come from what other people might think ("social norms"). She might not share this concern herself, but she might understand her dad. After all, he probably understands when she explains that she does or wants something because it's what's expected among their peers. So perhaps some compromise cold work: She gets up early when the neighbors come visit etc - not for the neighbors but for her dad. – henning -- reinstate Monica May 26 at 21:22
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    #2 only seems to work if there's some pressing reason that waffles need to be judged at 10 (like the parent needing to go to work or some other place after) otherwise it'll just come across as a cheap ploy to a teenager. – Erik May 27 at 8:52
  • @Erik I agree wholeheartedly - my point is that if there's no reason for her to wake up then she won't. It's up to her dad to figure out what will motivate her to be there or to accept that he needs to change his expectations. – BinaryTox1n May 27 at 14:51
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    It's important to add the fact that the brain of a teenager is undergoing massive reorganisation, and sleep is vital. When a teenager wants to catch up on sleep, let them. Plenty of good, and no damage, is done. I allowed my teens to sleep as late or early as they pleased (first three children), and they sorted out their sleeping schedules by themselves when they reached adulthood. I've adopted the same approach with my fourth child, still a teen. This approach generates trust and love, whereas trying to impose a schedule for no reason other than your own prejudice would generate mistrust. – Paddy Landau Jun 4 at 10:59
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Maintaining a consistent sleep schedule is important for your health. It's important for your overall health and for the health and quality of your sleep in the long-term.

Outside of the "my house, my rules" (which, in my opinion, is an important factor but not something to be lorded over them), studies at length have been conducted for the benefits of sleep and how poor sleep leads to even poorer sleep in a never-ending cycle. I'll add a few peer-reviewed studies below from the United States National Institute of Health below:

Effects of an irregular bedtime schedule on sleep quality, daytime sleepiness, and fatigue among university students in Taiwan

Short- and long-term health consequences of sleep disruption

Relationships between sleep, physical activity and human health

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    Supporting anecdote: I have suffered from insomnia for decades. I've relied on prescription sleep aids for years, and still took 30-90 minutes or more to get to sleep each night. I recently started a behavioral therapy treatment, and now I consistently get to sleep in under 20 minutes without sleep aids. A consistent sleep schedule, the same one for both weekdays and weekends, is one of the most heavily emphasized parts of the program. – Douglas May 26 at 17:41
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    -1 for claiming that "my house, my rules" is a valid justification for anything. – user371366 May 26 at 18:05
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    Yeah, "my house, my rules" isn't a reason, it's just using your authority as a parent to bend to your will without justification. Also, while it is true that irregular sleep schedules have negative consequences, it is also extremely common for young adults to have atypical sleep patterns. Finally, waking up late doesn't necessarily entail irregular sleep patterns, they could consistently go to sleep at 8 am and wake up at 4pm and be getting a normal 8 hours of sleep consistently every day. – Kevin Wells May 26 at 20:00
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    @KevinWells Are you suggesting children only need to follow rules they agree with? Justifying your rules is great, and some back-and-forth discussion or the occasional compromise can make for a healthy parent-child relationship. But ultimately "because I say so" underlines every rule and it (in some form) is the only fallback argument if they cannot be convinced to follow the rule using "proper" arguments. – NotThatGuy May 27 at 7:45
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    @user371366 SomeShinkyObject never suggested that "my house, my rules" was a justification (i.e. an argument for the rules being "right" or "reasonable"). On the other hand, most households aren't democracies, so why does the parent need to justify themselves? While pushing back against injustice, rather than just accepting it, is important, so too are learning discipline and obedience - that you can't just ignore rules because you don't want them to apply to you, or can't see why they should apply to you. Because, otherwise, that's how you get a society of entitled criminal brats – Chronocidal May 27 at 9:55
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In my experience, teens have short-sighted priorities and acts mostly from what they desire now. So let's look at it from the teen's perspective: Why should your teen get up early?

  • It keeps her sleep schedule on target for school. But that's literally months away!
  • It's healthy for her growth. Urgh
  • Your house, your rules. Double urgh

From her viewpoint, staying up late during the summer can be magical time (at least how I remember my youth). Things are simply different during night, and if daytime permits catching up on sleep, why not spend it talking with friends, binge movies, books, and comics, hang out in weird places, throughout the night? (Permitting they are safe activities)

Take a 2-legged approach:

  1. Make it worthwhile for her now to get up early, cf. waffle-competitions, outings and trips.
  2. Don't work around her delayed sleep schedule. If your house routine is breakfast at 7, vacuuming at 8 and mowing the lawn at 9, so be it. You will not avoid noisy household activities so she can sleep in because she would rather be up all night.

Give your teen the chance to show responsibility. If she can cope with being up all night and it doesn't bother you as a family, she can go ahead. But keep talking with her about her altered lifestyle affects her wellbeing and the family.

Regarding keeping a healthy sleeping schedule for back-to-school, discuss this with her. You could consider giving her free rein for the summer, if she agrees to get back on track the week prior to going back to school. There is of course no guarantee she will be able to keep this promise, but you could set up a reward for keeping her end of the bargain.

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    +1 for recognising that it's fun to stay up late! Teenagers often have responsibilities (exams, studying, extra-curricular activities, part-time jobs) but little real autonomy; giving them control over their sleep patterns - their own body - during summer seems like a worthy concession to make. – John McCollum May 27 at 9:19
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    As a teen, I had most of my fun at night. Starting projects such as programming and art and kept at then until I couldn't stay awake anymore. Learning about proper sleep schedules and how it effects your wellbeing. – Dean Meehan May 27 at 23:52
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  1. Sleeping during those years are crucial to growth spurts and development during puberty (as well as weight loss and muscle development) https://www.livescience.com/23178-deep-sleep-puberty.html
  2. You also don’t want to throw off your circadian rhythm -- plenty of time for that in college https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/neurologic-disorders/sleep-and-wakefulness-disorders/circadian-rhythm-sleep-disorders
  3. Prolonged sleep may have negative health effects (heart disease, diabetes, etc); https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/the-dangers-of-sitting

Regardless of it being summer or during the school year, there’s always something to do even during the quarantine. My relatives took their SATs (and starred-out) as a freshman in high school. I know schools may not require SATs anymore, but is she that well-rounded to be able to do that? How would she place? Knowing where she is, is the first step to knowing what she’s got to do to improve.

Summer was never “free time” in our house. It was prep for the year to come, planning our studies, working out for sports, researching colleges (even in 9th grade), discovering interests, learning what questions to ask, and reading books. By comparison, there are kids on Shark Tank that are preparing to run a business, kids on YouTube that are ready to perform nationwide recitals, kids prepping to go to the Olympics.

There isn’t any right way to go. No written law says you have to do anything; so ultimately it comes down to how comfortable you are with them and their status and how comfortable they are, but these are the crucial years to establish good behaviors for preparing for the workforce, to develop good habits to being successful, or to gain an advantage over other summer slackers. Suffice to say, time is a limited commodity that should be capitalized on.

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  • Hi, welcome to the site. This looks like it could be a good answer, but it makes some factual claims that don't include references to support those claims. Please find sources to back those up to make this a good answer. Thanks! – Joe May 26 at 22:08
  • Thanks @Joe! I’ll have to do a follow-up edit when I’m on a non-mobile device – vol7ron May 26 at 22:16
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    We liked "Why We Sleep" by Dr. Walker. Very readable, plus many references to studies and medical journals. – Technophile May 26 at 22:45
  • Summer was always “free time” in my house. And as a depressed introverted nihilist suffering from anxiety and insomnia, I'm getting along just fine.... +1 – Mazura May 27 at 1:09
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    Your link for #3 is a bit of a stretch. Sleep is good for you, and there's not any evidence that there's any such thing as "too much sleep". If you have the urge to sleep, you probably need it unless you have some sort of disorder. That article is just saying to be active while you're awake instead of being a lazy bum. In any case, waking up late doesn't mean you slept a lot. – Kat May 27 at 4:32
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You will be helping her to form habits that will help her:

  1. Keeping a regular schedule is kind of helpful in making it to class, to a job, to social events, etc.
  2. Sleep is important. Lack of sleep interferes with learning, awareness, decision making, driving safety; degrades your health, shortens your life. One very accessible link (bit of a click-bait title): ScienceAlert.com article
  3. Much more information in "Why We Sleep", Matthew Walker PhD
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  • I fail to see what 2 and 3 have to do with anything. Just because you sleep and wake up at a different time from everyone else does not automatically mean you aren't getting enough sleep. 2 and 3 don't even match your initial opening statement. – DKNguyen May 27 at 20:07
  • Sleeping from 06:00 to 15:00 is perfectly regular and pretty reasonable if working 19:00 - 04:00. – gerrit May 28 at 7:42
  • @DKNguyen 2 and 3 are about sleep being important, which seems related to having a bedtime to me. Assuming that there is some time you have to be up (such as a shared meal, an event, etc.), it's all too easy to stay up long enough that you won't get enough sleep. Re your second sentence, I didn't say that a different time meant less sleep. I said regular schedule, meaning a fairly constant schedule, to avoid jet-lagging yourself. – Technophile May 28 at 22:51
  • @Technophile You did not explicitly say that a different time meant less sleep, but you did heavily imply that when you followed up #1 with #2, especially when insufficient sleep was not an issue in the original question. What I was trying to get at was in the context of the question, getting enough sleep, on a constant schedule, but at different hours than everyone else is still no good. If you want to argue that getting enough hours of sleep on off hours is not healthy, that's a different matter but that's also not a matter of not getting enough sleep. – DKNguyen May 28 at 23:48
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As an adult I have found that circadian rythms can drift with really no limit - at times when I had no job and no particular thing to do and took no particular care to manage my sleep schedule I could easily find myself completely nocturnal. Your daughter might not realize how easily this can happen because, well, she doesn't have experience setting her own sleep schedule. And it sounds like this is your main concern as well - you don't like the idea of her getting up at 4pm, you don't like her being out of sync with society at large and your household in particular.

So I think pointing this situation out could be sufficient to convince her, but also I want to note that if this is something you want to avoid, an outright bedtime might not be the only solution. After all as adults we can often do both - we'll keep a steady bedtime regularly, and occasionally we'll have a crazy weekend where we get up at ridiculous hours, or stay up late or pull all-nighters, and or travel and suffer jetlag, and then we'll get back to our regular schedule. It's possible that even if your daughter agrees that falling completely out of sync with everyone for an extended period is undesirable, she doesn't think "get up at 9am every morning" is the only alternative. If you focus on what you actually want and you talk it over with your daughter you might together be able to come up with solutions that meet your need, but are flexible enough to meet her own desires for independence and autonomy. Like, get up between 8 and 10 every morning but with one "cheat day" allowed a week and a review of the arrangement if "between 8 and 10" turns into "10 all the time". Or, allow staying up late but have specific strategies to help her re-sync when that happens (and that happen to incentivize her to avoid doing that, while giving her the freedom to do it occasionally if it's important to her). For example when I stay up late several nights in a row, I may force myself to get up early the next morning so that I'll be able to go to sleep early the next night. There are also sleep hygiene strategies like no screens before bedtime, exercise, etc.

I guess what I want to say is that in this post you seem to start out with the rules you want, and are trying to backport reasons to justify the rules. But you should do the opposite: figure out what you want, and then decide how you can best achieve it. This is what you did subconsciously, there's a reason you came up with these specific proposed rules, but when arguing this with your daughter I think you would be really better served with starting out with what you want, and then allowing the rules to develop from there, with allowances for what she wants (which, not having had the conversation, you might not know in detail yet). And for that you need a more conscious understanding of your reasoning that seems to be pretty implicit and subconscious so far.

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Day schedule builds personal resilience and will power.

This is something akin to wearing a seat belt in a car, life jacket in a boat and a hard hat in the construction site.

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    Welcome! Is this the reason the asker should give to their child or is this a more generic remark on the topic? As for all new users, consider taking the tour and browse through the help center, especially [asl], to learn more about how the site works, then edit your post to make it clearer. – Stephie May 28 at 20:12
  • Could you please expand a bit on what you mean by "Day schedule"? – Technophile May 28 at 22:54
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    I don't see the connection between wearing protective equipment, where there's a clear connection between reasonably foreseeable modes of injury and the reduction of risk provided by the equipment, and avoiding sleeping in. I suspect if you told a teenager they have to wake up by a certain time every day for the same reason they have to wear a seat belt, they would not find that explanation to be convincing. – Zach Lipton May 29 at 0:12
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As some others have mentioned, wildly irregular sleep times can have very bad health impact. What was not mentioned (from what I've seen) and I now decided to post as an answer instead of comment, so the OP might have a chance of actually seeing it, not the replier I'd have posted that under:

Note, though, that perhaps an irregular sleeping pattern is not the only thing that can be bad. Also enforcing arbitrary, societal wake/sleep times may be bad, as in, forcing something that will ensure someone with not fitting inherently preferred sleep/wake time windows will not perform to their optimum because they are always sleep deprived.

Some scientists seem to reject the notion of "chronotype" - e.g. Satchin Panda in his book The Circadian Code, paperback, p.33 The Myth of Night Owls and Early Birds - he did not cite references for that insistence, IIRC. Matthew Walker, in his book Why we sleep very explicitly says in the section My rythm is not your rythm that your biologically preferred sleep/wake times were not choice. Basically, the same external synchronization signals (e.g. light) do not necessarily produce the same inner clock phase in every individual. Resulting in some people being able to fall asleep some hours later, or earlier (seems more rare) than others. What was not referenced in the book and I alas was unable to find a reference for quickly, is what I remember about this effect being still present, even though only about half as pronounced, when a group of test subjects was put on an island without artificially stretched length of day / individualized lighting conditions (i.e. electrical light). The "night owls" were still night owls, just by half the amount of hours that they were "in civilization". Note that this changes over younger age to roughly up to the late 20's or so. Alas, I do not remember authors names of this.

Both books mentioned, though, will give a lot of insight into all the health down sides of not properly sleeping - for what it's worth. Some of those may be easily grasped by your young child. I would just plea for really making her understand, as opposed to trying to trick her into obedience with scares - if one does not understand and is convinced of something onself and just uses something as a bludgeon, something will feel off, which I'd say is not good for relationships of mutual trust. (not implying you would, I don't know you - but I guess it could be tempting, if convincing by other means, that might make al lthe sens in the world to the parent, fail)

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Compromise

Have a chat with your daughter, and make a compromise. I'd go for something of the like: As long as you are up by 11 at the latest, you can stay up for as long as you want and do what you want with your time(*). If you miss your get-up hour - you get a bedtime hour.

Then see how that works.

(*) Within the set of rules that still apply, of course - perhaps no visitors at odd hours, keep the noise at a reasonable level and etc. Your house, your rules.

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